Should S/O, D/O and W/O mark the parent's or husband's name, as bin does? (Ravi Kumar S/O Mohan Lal gives middle 'Kumar S/O Mohan') #1165

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1. derek73

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   on Nov 8, 2026
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   vocabularyPer-word vocabulary model and language packsPer-word vocabulary model and language packs

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3. derek73 commented on Nov 8, 2026

   

   derek73

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   Malaysia writes the same relation, with a difference that matters for the reading. Measured 2026-11-08 on the 2015 King's birthday honours list (The Star, 1,504 names in Malaysian official style): a/l (anak lelaki, son of) or a/p (anak perempuan, daughter of) appears in 116 names, and Iban anak (child of) in 28.

   In Malaysia the father's name after the marker is part of the legal name, as it is after bin. So these should read the way bin does, the father's name staying in the family, unlike S/O in an Indian record, where the name after it isn't the bearer's:

   Input	now: middle / family	simulated as a patronymic particle: family = patronymic
   Encik Angappan a/l Thandavan	a/l / Thandavan	a/l Thandavan
   Puan Harjit Kaur a/p Chand Singh	Harjit Kaur a/p Chand / Singh (and given Puan)	a/p Chand Singh
   Encik Edward anak Stephen Kurik	anak Stephen / Kurik	anak Stephen Kurik

   Today the family starts with the marker in 7 of the 116 and 1 of the 28. The simulation is Lexicon.default().add(w, kind="patronymic") for each of the three, on master ccaf6ad.

   So the questions above split by country: a/l/a/p and anak read like bin, and S/O would end the bearer's name. anak is also a word in other languages (Wikidata has one given-name bearer, Belgian; ORCID 35 records), so it may want a choice of ms.
4. derek73 commented on Nov 9, 2026

   

   derek73

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   Greek has the same shape, written with the article: του ("of the", masculine genitive) and then the father's given name in the genitive. Official records write it after the full name, in either order (Γιάννης Παπαδόπουλος του Γεωργίου, Παπαδόπουλος Γιάννης του Γεωργίου). A woman also writes του for her father, and συζ. (σύζυγος, wife of) for her husband. Measured on master ccaf6ad:

   Νικόλαος Δηλιγιάννης του Πέτρου   → middle 'Δηλιγιάννης του', family 'Πέτρου'
   Ανδρέας Μιαούλης του Δημητρίου    → middle 'Μιαούλης του', family 'Δημητρίου'
   Μαρία Παπαδοπούλου σύζ. Ιωάννη     → middle 'Παπαδοπούλου σύζ.', family 'Ιωάννη'
   

   As with S/O, the bearer's own name ends before the marker, so the family should be Δηλιγιάννης. Among Wikidata's Greek politicians there are only 2 such labels in 4,841, both used to tell two people of the same name apart. The official lists that write the father's name this way (parliament, elections) refuse automated requests, so how common it is there is unmeasured. The feminine της also marks a territory, not a parent (Πρίγκιπας Γεώργιος της Ελλάδας, "of Greece"), so only του can be the marker.
5. derek73

   added a parent issue on Nov 9, 2026

   • Where does a father's name go when the name has no family name? (Abiy Ahmed Ali, Ухнаагийн Хүрэлсүх, Бекмырза Чолпонбай уулу) #1253